STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
So what does all this mean? We have called Michael McFaul. He was the United States ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration. Ambassador, welcome back.
MICHAEL MCFAUL: Thanks for having me.
INSKEEP: When the president says that peace in the Middle East - which is not quite what we have - we do have a ceasefire in the Middle East - will somehow help the situation in Ukraine, do you believe that?
MCFAUL: Well, I'd like to believe it because I would like to believe that the president will help to end this horrible war in Ukraine. And I applaud the fact that he is talking to Putin and will meet with President Zelenskyy and will travel to Europe, to Budapest, to meet with Putin. Those are good signs that he's trying to end the war, but I don't see a lot of connectivity between what happened in the Middle East and what happened here, for a couple of reasons. First, President Trump's influence and relationship with the prime minister of Israel, Bibi Netanyahu, is a lot greater than he has vis-a-vis Putin, and we've seen that demonstrated time and time again.
And the second big difference is that the war in Gaza tragically was a long, hard war that one side felt like they won. Israel felt like they won. That is not the case in Ukraine. Putin has not destroyed all of the pieces of Ukraine that he tried to take. He hasn't captured Kyiv. He hasn't even captured the four regions of Ukraine that he annexed in some grand ceremony a couple of years ago. So it doesn't have the same moment like this war needs to end because Putin still thinks that he has military objectives to try to pursue.
INSKEEP: The most solid news out of this phone call, I suppose, was the announcement of forthcoming meetings - that Secretary of State Rubio will meet with Russian officials, that President Trump will meet again with President Putin. And, of course, you mentioned the meeting with Zelenskyy. When you look at that sequence of meetings, can you imagine a way that that could lead to some progress?
MCFAUL: I certainly hope so. And I think the fact that he's meeting with both President Zelenskyy and talking to Putin and meeting with him, that's a good sign. That's what you have to do in mediation. But I just - I'm reminded of the fact that we did this once before. President Trump met with President Putin in Alaska, and then he met with Zelenskyy a few days later. And when I look back on that, I can't see any concrete progress towards ending the war. So I hope we don't just repeat that. And I think sometimes you got to remember, meetings, usually, if they're going to have progress, they have to have objectives for the meeting rather than the meeting being the objective in and of itself.
INSKEEP: You're correct that there have been a few cycles of this where the president has reached out to Russia. He's been frustrated, has expressed that frustration and then has tried again and sometimes talks of further pressure on Russia in terms of sanctions or more weapons for Ukraine. Do you see any serious signs that the president of the United States is increasing his pressure on the president of Russia?
MCFAUL: Well, you got it exactly right. Rhetorically, you have seen President Trump change the way he talks about Russia, change the way he talks about Putin. And he's definitely expressed frustration. But in actual policy, the Trump administration has not implemented a single new sanction against Russia - Russian enterprise, Russian individual - not one thing.
And on the weapons, I applaud the fact that they are selling weapons to our allies and then transferring them to Ukraine. Why are we not providing weapons directly to Ukraine as well? The president rightly always talks about burden sharing with our allies. In this case, we're just making money off the war in Ukraine. I think that's immoral, and I also don't think it sends the right signal to Putin. I think more weapons and more sanctions would help to create the permissive conditions for a genuine negotiation to end this war.
INSKEEP: I guess we should mention that Trump meeting Putin is one thing, but are the Ukrainians and Russians ready to meet?
MCFAUL: Well, I think President Zelenskyy's been crystal clear. He's ready to meet anytime, anywhere. He wants to negotiate directly with President Putin. It's the Russian leader who has evaded him. And so I hope that when President Trump meets with him in Budapest, he will convince him that he's got to start talking directly to the Ukrainians because at the end of the day, this cannot be a negotiation between the United States and Russia about Ukraine's future. It has to be a negotiation between Ukrainians and Russians, between Zelenskyy and Putin.
INSKEEP: As you're talking, I'm realizing that in order to take that meeting, Putin would have to give up his entire concept of the war because his concept of the war is that Ukraine is not a country and it's part of Russia.
MCFAUL: That's exactly right. And that's why, tragically, I'm not optimistic that it's going to happen anytime soon. He's also said that Ukraine is run by Nazis and that the part of the reason he invaded was denazification. That's a direct comment about his views on President Zelenskyy. So he would have to change radically the way he has portrayed this war to his citizens if he's going to negotiate.
INSKEEP: Ambassador Michael McFaul, it's always a pleasure listening to you. Thank you so much.
MCFAUL: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
INSKEEP: He has a new book coming out later this month called "Autocrats Vs. Democrats." Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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