TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. My guest today is filmmaker Craig Brewer. He's built a career telling stories about people chasing dignity and purpose through music. He first broke out with "Hustle & Flow" - that was back in 2005 - about a Memphis pimp trying to make it as a rapper. And since then, his work has moved across genres, from "Black Snake Moan" and "Footloose" to "Dolemite Is My Name" and "Coming 2 America," the sequel. His new film is called "Song Sung Blue," and it's based on the true story of Mike and Claire Sardina, a couple from Milwaukee who met in the late '80s and built a life around their Neil Diamond tribute act, Lightning & Thunder. They played bars, small venues and, over time, became local celebrities. Eddie Vedder even invited them to open for Pearl Jam. In the film, they're played by Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson.
In this scene I'm about to play. We find them on their very first date, just getting to know each other. Jackman's character starts to open up about his sobriety, what he's learned along the way and his long-held desire to perform.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SONG SUNG BLUE")
HUGH JACKMAN: (As Mike) I'm always going to be an alcoholic, but I've been sober 20 years. And the other day, it was, well, they call it a sober birthday.
KATE HUDSON: (As Claire) Happy belated sober birthday.
JACKMAN: (As Mike) Here's the thing. With sobriety, you have - you got to face up to certain truths.
HUDSON: (As Claire) Way to go. I mean, 20 years.
JACKMAN: (As Mike) All right. I'm not a songwriter. I'm not a sex symbol. But I just want to entertain people, and I want to make a living.
HUDSON: (As Claire) I know me, too. I don't want to be a hairdresser. I want to sing. I want to dance. I want a house. I want a garden. I want a cat.
JACKMAN: (As Mike) So here's what I'm thinking. I need a hook. I need something big. I need something new. And as you put it, nostalgia pays.
MOSLEY: This year also marks 20 years since "Hustle & Flow," the film that changed Craig Brewer's life. The late director John Singleton believed in the project so deeply that he put his own house up as collateral to finance it. "Hustle & Flow" went on to win several awards, including an Academy Award for best original song for "It's Hard Out Here For A Pimp." Brewer still lives in Memphis, and he's described "Song Sung Blue" as a little bit of a brother to "Hustle & Flow." Craig Brewer, welcome back to FRESH AIR.
CRAIG BREWER: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
MOSLEY: Thank you for being here. And you know what? I was actually struck by the way you described "Song Sung Blue" as kind of a sibling to "Hustle & Flow." What connects those two films for you?
BREWER: Well, I think that I've just always been really fascinated by people who have really big dreams, almost dreams that when you hear them as someone just listening on or a friend or family member, you almost feel bad for them a little bit. You feel as if like, oh, no, it's too big. And yet there's still something, I think, in every human that when they hear those kind of dreams coming from out of somebody, you could be bitter about it because it's probably tapping into something that's in your own soul, really, something that maybe you let go of.
And particularly with artists, you're dealing with the elements of their life that are informing their art and informing their sound or their point of view. So especially with, like, "Hustle & Flow, " I always felt that whenever I was talking to rappers that I knew here in Memphis, especially in the, you know, early 2000s, late '90s, like, there was a big movement of being dismissive of rap, that it wasn't truly, like, an art form.
MOSLEY: Especially Southern rap.
BREWER: Right. I'm glad you said that. It was - I mean, now everything kind of sounds like Southern rap. But around the time that I was trying to get "Hustle & Flow" going, it was definitely not something on the radar, and definitely plenty of people that would be very dismissive of rap as an art form. But I just - I couldn't help but see them to be completely incorrect. I mean, I was with friends of mine who had taken elements of their life or elements of their dreams, like wish fulfillment, and put it into the music in a way that I just felt was fascinating and empowering. And so when I look at "Song Sung Blue," I kind of see the same thing.
There's that dreamer element, that you kind of look at their life and they're saying, yeah, I'm going to be playing on Broadway. I'm going to be playing in big casinos, you know, and you're just like, no, I don't think that's going to happen. And yet their journey in it, the family that they kind of create around it is something that is aspirational. And I also think that, you know, to a great extent, it also happened with me just with the way I started my career in Memphis, Tennessee.
MOSLEY: Yeah. You know, this story, "Song Sung Blue" and Mike and Claire's story, who are real people, it took hold of you some time ago. You saw a documentary about them back in 2009.
BREWER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: And I actually want to play a clip where Mike and Claire, played by Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson, they've narrowed in on this idea of being a tribute band for Neil Diamond, and they're practicing in this clip in Claire's home. They're kind of really getting it started. And she shares a home with her mother. So you'll also hear her mother in this clip. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SONG SUNG BLUE")
JACKMAN: (As Mike) Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
JACKMAN: (As Mike, singing) Tell your mama, girl, we can't stay long.
HUGH JACKMAN AND KATE HUDSON: (As Mike and Claire, singing) We got things we gotta catch up on.
HUDSON: (As Claire, vocalizing).
JACKMAN: (As Mike, singing) Mmm, you know you know what I'm sayin'.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Excuse me.
HUDSON: (As Claire, vocalizing).
JACKMAN: (As Mike) Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Much too late for anyone to be singing that loud.
HUDSON: (As Claire) Ma, this is the man I was telling you about, Mike Sardina. This is lightning.
JACKMAN: (As character) How you doing tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Not good. Sing softer.
MOSLEY: (Laughter) That's where we get to hear Hugh Jackman's pipes. I mean, I think...
BREWER: Right.
MOSLEY: ...We've kind of known, if you follow him in theater, that he can really sing. Yeah.
BREWER: He can. He loves it. It takes everything to just pull him off that stage if he's in the mode of entertaining. He loves it. He really does. And then Kate is the big surprise to I'm sure a lot of people who are seeing the movie, that she's just got an incredible voice.
MOSLEY: Right. And their voices together work in harmony so well. Is it true that you prerecorded all of the music in Memphis before you started shooting?
BREWER: I did. I did. I have the same music collaborator and composer and producer. His name is Scott Bomar. And he did all the score and recording for "Hustle & Flow," for all the blues music in "Black Snake Moan." But yeah, we know all the old Stax musicians and people that, like, recorded with Willie Mitchell and, you know, Al Green. And there's just a real wealth of talent here in Memphis. I just kind of feel very comfortable working in the studios here. And I would say that I probably learned the most about directing actors by watching really good producers and reading about Memphis producers working with talent. I - it's kind of just the - it's just my groove, you know.
MOSLEY: Well, that's so interesting because you've said that in the studio is where you actually saw Jackman and Hudson figure out their character. So it's not necessarily in the rehearsals, you know, on a set, but in the recording studio...
BREWER: Oh, yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Singing together. And I was just curious, what did you see happening between them in those sessions?
BREWER: Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I still believe that, like, really good music producing is trying to find the spark of the moment. Like, there's just - you're not trying to get too technical to tell somebody to hit a note here or there. You kind of want to just capture something really real and provide an environment where they can be that real. And so we were keeping, like, Hugh in one isolation booth and Kate in another isolation booth. And it just really wasn't working.
So Scott and I, we put a couch out, and we just put two microphones in front of the couch, and we just sat them right next to each other on the couch. And it's so funny because it's so perfect 'cause sometimes people have asked me, like, hey, if I'm having relationship trouble, what should I do? And I go, I know this sounds odd, but go out to dinner but just sit at the bar. I go, there's something about facing each other that is this confrontational act, to some extent. But if you're side by side, you know, you can kind of just - two people kind of dealing with their own things, you know? But there's a closeness that happens that is different than facing each other at dinner.
And I think the same thing happened with Hugh and Kate. We didn't do any rehearsals. We had one read through. And then we sat them down and threw them right into the mix of having to figure out their harmonies and, like, when they're going to come in. And by the end of the day - and you got to remember, these are two actors that really didn't know each other and met on this day (laughter).
MOSLEY: Oh, they had never met in person or at all before this?
BREWER: No, no. We had done some phone calls and a Zoom call at one point, but, no, no.
MOSLEY: How did you know that they'd have chemistry? Was that a fear at all?
BREWER: Oh, it's a fear. It doesn't matter how charismatic your actors are. There's still that alchemy that happens of, like, two people coming together and how are they going to respond to each other. But my fears went away at the end of that day recording because they started really just - they felt married suddenly. I mean, it was kind of like, you know, she'd be like, no, you didn't really get that note. We could do that one more time. Craig, one more. You know? And it's just like suddenly she was being protective of Hugh and vice versa. And then suddenly they're connected. And then the next day, we did a camera test. And they were dressed up in their outfits. And we threw on the song that you just heard, like, "Cherry, Cherry."
And they started singing along to it. I turned around and I could just see the whole crew just stop what they were doing and this grin on all their face and just watching them on the monitors. And they're like, oh, there they are. It's like, there's the couple I didn't know I needed to see. And to me, it was kind of cool because, you know, you have Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson, who both kind of popped in the '90s, you know, more than 20 years ago. And now we're seeing them and they're older, and yet they still have the spark. And it just felt real. It felt grounded and lovely.
MOSLEY: The crew's response, it makes me think about something else I've heard you say, that men on your crew were actually getting emotional watching Hugh, telling you he reminded them of their fathers or themselves when he was performing, like, the anthems of the things that they couldn't say.
BREWER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: What were you seeing in those moments?
BREWER: Yeah, I mean, it was definitely in the music, but definitely in more of the moments where he had to be a dad. And I found it so fascinating because I would actually go around to some of my crew members. I mean, these are, like, tough grips and electricians and everything. But they would get emotional watching him. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, what's happening? And we started having conversations about, like, well, what are the movies that men cry? And, like, I'm being general here. You know, I cry every movie I see.
MOSLEY: (Laughter) Yeah.
BREWER: But why is it that "Field Of Dreams" just unashamedly makes men cry, you know? It's like, OK, you're dealing with father themes. You're dealing with themes of, am I able to, like, honor my family? Like, am I able to take care of my family? And does anybody know, perhaps, even though I'm kind of quiet that I am suffering with it? And I think that there's been a lot of, probably justifiably and understandably, there has been a lot of criticism towards masculinity.
And I think that the interesting thing that I've heard in some of the test audiences is some women saying it's nice to see positive masculinity, you know, an era of men that, like, if something is not exactly the way everybody would want it, they're still making it work. They're just patching themselves up, and in silence, moving forward. And it was a nice way to see that or celebrate that in a character. And there is something happening there.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with filmmaker Craig Brewer, director of the new film "Song Sung Blue." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF AARON PARKS' "SMALL PLANET")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And today, I'm talking with Craig Brewer, the director of "Song Sung Blue," a film inspired by the true story of a married couple who turn a Neil Diamond tribute act into a livelihood and a test of their relationship as they navigate sobriety, creative compromise and the realities of starting a family.
I'm going to spoil one thing from the film to tell everyone that you make us wait for "Sweet Caroline" (laughter). How did you think about withholding the thing that everyone expects?
BREWER: (Laughter) I know. It sounds like such a horrible thing that I've done, but I get it.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
BREWER: What was happening to me is that I was writing. I was getting ready to work on the movie. And so people would go, what are you making right now? And I'd be like, well, I want to make this movie about this Neil Diamond tribute band. And they would say, oh, are you going to do "Sweet Caroline"? I said, yes, we're going to do "Sweet Caroline." Every single person I talked to, that was the first thing out of their mouth. Are they going to sing "Sweet Caroline"? And I was like, yes, yes.
We're also going to do "Forever In Blue Jeans" and "I'm A Believer" and "Play Me" and "Cherry, Cherry." Like, I started bringing up all the - you know, he's got other songs, you know? I'm even mad that I'm not going to be able to do all the songs I want to do. I don't think I have enough room. So I put that element in the movie knowing full well that everyone, even people who don't know Neil Diamond, are going like, I know one Neil Diamond song. And it's because I've been drunk at a bar, and someone started singing "Sweet Caroline." And I knew you come in on bom, bom, bom and so good, so good, so good.
And so it was this thing that I always knew, like, man, when that song hits, you better really land it. Like, it's got to be good. But you have to, like, lay some seed for it. You need to, like, tease your audience. And so I don't keep it from them for a long time. I mean, it's probably - what? - maybe like 30 minutes into the movie, maybe right around there, a little bit before then. It's a great moment when it happens. But there's so many other amazing music moments.
MOSLEY: Claire, she's still alive. She's still performing, actually, under the name Thunder After Lightning because Mike died in 2006.
BREWER: Yes.
MOSLEY: And, you know, I think when - as I was watching the film, I was thinking about also knowing what would happen, that he spent his entire adult life devoted to Neil Diamond's music, but he never got to meet him.
BREWER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: And there's something almost unbearable about that. How did you sit with that when you first learned it?
BREWER: Well, it's tricky because there's a part of me that goes, oh, that's so sad. And then there's another part of me that goes, oh, it's so perfect. It really is. You know, I really love my father. He was in shipping, but he loved movies and going to plays, and we - that was probably the way that we threw the ball around in our own way, was going to see movies together. And when I wrote my first movie, I sent it off to my dad, and he read it and he gave me, like, such a great final - like, final thing to say to me, where he was like, don't be afraid to, like, film this movie with no money and, like, a digital video camera and don't apologize for it. And it was the last thing he said to me because later on, he died of a sudden heart attack. And he was a healthy guy, you know? And my mother gave me like 20 grand of inheritance that I got from his passing, and I made my first film with it. And I sometimes think about how my father has never met my children. My father has never seen any of my films, but he's completely responsible for it all.
His driving force and the final things that he said to me and just everything kind of, like, filled me with this desire to do the best. Ans so I just remember when I saw the documentary and I was like, this guy poured everything he could into the love of Neil Diamond and claimed that the music of Neil Diamond saved him and kept him sober and helped him deal with the - you know, the visions of Vietnam that he had experienced as a tunnel rat and yet did not get to meet him. You know, even when Neil Diamond was coming into town, he passed before that could happen. I mean, later, of course, Claire got to meet him. There's a wonderful picture of the two of them in the documentary where Neil Diamond's holding on to Claire Sardina, you know, he always had a standing ticket at all the shows for her. And so, it's bittersweet because it's the thing that's sad. But I remember seeing it, and this weird part of me inside was going, like, that's kind of perfect for story. You know, it's a - people are - they're going to be mad that he never got to meet them.
MOSLEY: Craig, you mentioned your father, who loomed large in your life. Every time I hear you talk about him, I just have so many questions I want to ask you about your relationship. You mentioned that he read your first film, which is "The Poor & The Hungry" (ph). And he told you - he gave you some advice on how to move forward with that because it was a really - kind of a tough time for you. You had been working to try to fulfill this dream of being a filmmaker. You had already made that decision, but you were kind of striking out. You were in debt. You were just trying to, like, figure out how you're going to do this thing. And he told you to keep it simple. What has stayed with you most about that conversation that you had with him? Because he died soon after - like, very soon after, almost, like, the next day or later that day?
BREWER: Yeah, it was - yeah, later that day. Yeah, it's, you know, I think I've been thinking about it a little bit more now because I'm now exactly five years older than my father ever was. And it is a strange thing, I'm sure, for anybody out there that's had that happen when you kind of lap your parent, especially when they died unexpectedly early because you've looked at all these pictures and everything and you think, oh, yeah, he was just so much older than I. I was so much more of a grown-up. But now I'm looking at pictures and I'm doing the math and I'm like, wait a minute, I think he was 43 in this picture, you know, then I think back on my own 43-year-old like, oh, wow, was he dealing with that? So I think what I think of it more is just as now I'm a parent with a 24-year-old son and a 17-year-old daughter, and am I saying the right things to them? You know, am I trying to give them some encouragement?
It's such a tough time when you're a young adult and you want to be something so badly. You want to be anything. Maybe you're even searching for it. And there's so many moments where you can feel like a failure. And I think he just, you know, as I tell people, like, oh, as a dad, he stuck the landing. I mean, like, the last thing he told me was, you know, just look at what you have and try not to apologize for it and try to move the dream to your reality and don't try to do it the other way. And I think that's ultimately what helped me find perhaps my voice a little bit more was to think about, like, well, what are the real basic rudiments of this story? And am I maybe - do I have the danger of getting in the way of it by just trying to make it larger than it should be when it should probably be simple or even more effective that way. And so I think that maybe it was just because he was very much into kind of, like, corporate planning that he just - it's like, well, what do we have, and what can we do, and what do we want, and what's the ultimate goal? And I think I just couldn't see the forest through the trees a little bit.
MOSLEY: My guest today is filmmaker Craig Brewer. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET CAROLINE")
NEIL DIAMOND: (Singing) Sweet Caroline. Good times never seemed so good. I've been inclined to believe they never would.
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And I'm continuing our conversation with filmmaker Craig Brewer. He came out of Memphis in 2005 with "Hustle & Flow," a character-driven film that reshaped his career and established many of the themes that continue to define his work - ambition, reinvention and the complicated role music plays in people's lives. "Hustle & Flow" won an Academy Award for Best Original Song for "It's Hard Out Here For Pimp." And since then, Brewer has moved between independent films and studio projects, often returning to stories about performers and outsiders, including "Black Snake Moan," "Dolemite Is My Name" and now his new film, "Song Sung Blue."
"The Poor & The Hungry, " you took that $20,000 inheritance that your dad left for you and you made this film. It's a love story between a car thief and a cellist whose car he stole. But really it's about people living on the margins and trying to find something honorable or clean in the middle of the hustle. And I want to play the open to the movie, which was shot in black-and-white. And it sets up the premise of the film. Let's listen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE POOR AND THE HUNGRY")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Most of the time, the parts are worth more than the whole thing.
(SOUNDBITE OF TRAIN HONKING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) You take some rundown hoop you can't even turn over, you'd be lucky to pull in scrap change at the junkyard. But if you break her down into different parts, you can sell everything that's working for a good profit. Rotors, radiators, cylinders, steering columns. People pay good money for a trunk top or a back bumper. Say you take people. They just like cars. If you look at a person whole, take them all in at once - their looks, their nature, how much money they got in their pockets - you may say, hey, he ain't worth much.
(SOUNDBITE OF CAR CLUNKING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) But people got parts. You just got to get inside.
(SOUNDBITE OF ALARM RINGING)
BREWER: Wow.
MOSLEY: (Laughter) That is "The Poor & The Hungry." There is a rawness and a richness to it. And I want to make a point to say, this is the year 2000. In what ways did your dad's voice direct you through the making?
BREWER: Well, I think that the thing that had really depressed me is that I tried to make a film before this that I tried to shoot on film. And I didn't quite know what I was doing. But I was hearing from everybody that this is what was going to get me into Sundance or get me into the industry is that it had to be shot on film. And he really, on that phone call, he was like, it sounds to me like you're trying to get in and you're not trying to get good. And, yeah, kind of stings, doesn't it (laughter)?
MOSLEY: Right (laughter).
BREWER: You know, it's like, it's so true. And I have to say, like, even today, when I'm talking to young filmmakers, you want to be careful because sometimes they'll come up to me and they're like, look, I got this whole idea for a franchise. It's kind of this superhero movie and blah, blah, blah. And they start going into it. And I want them to stay inspired and to keep talking. But there's another part of me that wants to just say, like, here's what my dad would probably say, is that you don't have the tools to produce this. So you need to maybe redirect some of your thoughts and your passion to wanting to make something towards your own life. And trust that your own life might actually be more interesting than explosions on another planet.
And I think that that's really the big lesson with it all, you know, just to try to just, to the best of my ability - we produced plays of mine right after I graduated high school. And, you know, I did a lot in high school as well. But after high school, the two of us formed a company that was just called - I mean, we didn't form a company. It was like, we had an account. And the account...
MOSLEY: You and your dad.
BREWER: ...Was for two Brewers. And so the account abbreviation was BR2, which later, when my father passed away, that was the name of my company.
MOSLEY: Yes.
BREWER: And it's now still a family company. My daughter made a short film just recently. And she actually - it was a big, teary moment when she said, I'd like to restart BR2 again. So that was the account number that my dad and I had when we would produce these small plays that I wrote and I directed. And, you know, he would be counting the people in the audience to see if we had a break even for that night. And I would be thinking about the play.
But, you know, he still was a big believer in trying to keep cost down and doing things that didn't have, like, sets. It could be done on a black box stage. And that kind of translated into film for me. And oddly enough, like, I still think about it. I still think, is there a better, more emotional way to do this scene instead of, like, what I initially wrote? Like, oh, it's going to be on this big bridge. It'll be at night in the rain. And it's like, now I'm thinking of all the problems that are going to happen with it, as opposed to maybe there's something that's more attainable and more meaningful. And that's really what I got from Dad.
MOSLEY: That's so interesting, what you got from your father and what you share with these young filmmakers, because I'm also thinking about "Hustle & Flow," which I think I've heard you say that it's sort of a reflection of you and your wife making "The Poor & The Hungry," that scrappiness and that resourcefulness.
BREWER: Oh, yeah.
MOSLEY: In the same journey as the characters in "Hustle & Flow," Djay and Shug.
BREWER: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, without, like, you know, apples to apples comparison, like, I am...
MOSLEY: Yeah, you're not a pimp trying to be a (laughter) musician.
BREWER: I'm not a pimp, yeah. But really, you know, when I was making that first film, my wife was pregnant with our first child. We were living in a small house in Memphis. I couldn't edit the movie and have air conditioning through our window unit at the same time, so I'd have to get, like, my room really, really cool and cold in August and then I'd turn it off. And then I could turn on my computer, because, you know, the circuit breaker would blow.
You know, that scrappiness you see in "Hustle & Flow" is really about us making my first film and the struggles to try to make it, and also that to be a director sometimes is to be a manipulator. And you're kind of trying to get everybody around you to share your vision and try to, in a weird way, sometimes you angle it where you think it's best for them (laughter). But they're ultimately there to help you.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with filmmaker Craig Brewer, director of "Song Sung Blue," about the through line in his work and why music keeps pulling him back as a storytelling engine. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF RUDY ROYSTON'S "BED BOBBIN'")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today I'm talking with Craig Brewer. He came out of Memphis in 2005 with "Hustle & Flow," a character-driven film that reshaped his career and established many of the themes that continue to define his work - ambition, reinvention and the complicated role music plays in people's lives.
"Hustle & Flow," it went on to win several awards, including an Academy Award for best original song for "It's Hard Out Here For A Pimp" (ph) by Three 6 Mafia. And I have a question about the making of that song. But first, we got to hear a little bit of it to remind the audience. So let's just play a little bit.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HARD OUT HERE FOR A PIMP")
THREE 6 MAFIA: (Singing) You know, it's hard out here for a pimp.
Yean (ph) know.
(Singing) When he trying to get this money for the rent.
Yean know.
(Singing) For the Cadillacs and gas money spent.
Yean know.
(Singing) 'Cause a whole lot of - talkin' [expletive].
Yean know.
(Singing) You know, it's hard out here for a pimp.
Yean know.
(Singing) When he trying to get this money for the rent.
Yean know.
(Singing) For the Cadillacs and gas money spent.
Yean know.
(Singing) Will have a whole lot of - jumping ship.
Yean know.
(Rapping) With my eyes I done seen some crazy things in the streets. Got a couple - workin' on the chain just for me. But I gotta keep my game tight like Kobe on game night. Like takin' from a - don't know no better, I know that ain't right.
MOSLEY: That was "It's Hard Out Here For A Pimp" by Three 6 Mafia, the first rap group to win an Oscar. And, Craig, I heard that the song was written, negotiated and put to bed in about five hours. Is that right?
BREWER: It's a great, crazy story.
MOSLEY: And then you guys went to the club or something like that. Yeah.
BREWER: So John Singleton - I learned a lot about the hustle with John. I really did. Because he was making it with his own money, but he was a real fan of Southern rap, like, way before everybody else was. So when we were - John was going to be flying into Memphis and Terrence Howard and Taraji Henson were over at Three 6 Mafia's studio, recording a song. John was coming in because he wanted another song. He wanted what we were all saying, we need a pimp song. And I was supposed to take him over to the studio. But I pulled him into this other studio where my friend Al Kapone was doing a song, "Whoop That Trick." And so John bought "Whoop That Trick" that's featured in the movie, and now has kind of, like, become an anthem at sports arenas around the country.
But he then was very empowered to go in and negotiate with Juicy J of Three 6 Mafia, who wanted more money (laughter), or probably the fair amount of money. So we go to the studio, and Juicy J goes, so I hear you're messing with another rapper. You're going to hire Al Kapone to maybe do that pimp song. And John's like, hey, man, you know, it's business. And Juicy said, OK, that's too bad because I got this. And he hit the space bar on his laptop and the beat of "Hard Out Here For A Pimp" began to play. And it was amazing. And then Juicy pulls out, like, a napkin. Like, it was like a -like, from a Neely's Barbecue, local barbecue joint, where he had scribbled out the lyrics of - you know it's hard out here for a pimp. Like he had written it out on this napkin and said, this is what Taraji would sing. And I'm seeing John just kind of, like, go crazy. Like, he's loving it. And then Juicy is like, but you got to get down in the pocket, got to get down to the sock, John. You know, you got to get me a little bit more bread on this.
So John pushes me into this other room with Frayser Boy and he said, you know, you tell him what the movies about while he writes the lyrics, and I'm going to negotiate with Juicy. And so I'm in there while Frayser Boy, like, is, you know, rolling a blunt and writing an Academy Award-winning song. And I went outside and I noticed that John and Juicy were on either side of the room, but they were - they had their lawyers on their Sidekicks. They're like blue berries (ph).
MOSLEY: The Sidekick phone, yeah.
BREWER: Remember those? They kind of - they flung out like a little switch blade almost.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
BREWER: And John was like, you know, you'd hear, like, a (imitating phone notification sound) and then Juicy would look at his phone and he'd be like, oh, you want 50% of my ringtone money, huh? Is that what you want? And then John would get a bing and they would negotiate that way as they were discussing which shake joint they wanted to go to that night. And so they negotiated it, and then we...
MOSLEY: Shake joint - strip club. That's what you mean.
BREWER: Strip club - that's it, yes. Yes. And so Terrence is in the next room, and we hand him fresh lyrics. Taraji is there. She records the hook. It all happened, like, right then. It was so Memphis. It was just such a very quick but inspired combination that came together that happened to create an Academy Award-winning song.
MOSLEY: Take me back to that night, Oscar night. I mean, you knew you had been nominated, that Three 6 Mafia had been nominated, and that in itself is a big deal for this rap group to be nominated for an Oscar. But did you even expect that there was a chance that it would win?
BREWER: I have to be really honest with you. As soon as I knew we were nominated, I thought we had won it. I was pretty confident because every other song that was nominated was more of like a background song. There were great songs, but they weren't integral to, like, the plot. They weren't something that people were, like, working towards and striving towards. So I was pretty confident we won it, and then we won it. And then I got the call that has never been equaled, which was my agent, Charles King, who now runs a big company called MACRO - Charles said, you've been invited to Prince's house. Do you want to go?
(LAUGHTER)
BREWER: I was like, yes, sir, and went there and Ludacris was there. And Ludacris was just saying, like, man, nobody knows how big of a deal this is, that not only did we just win - did a rap group win an Academy Award, but that a Southern rap group that we've all known about for, like, 10 years and has been only kind of, like, on the local Southern circuit just blew up on a global stage. It was a big night for us. It really was.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with filmmaker Craig Brewer, director of "Song Sung Blue," about the through line and his work and why music keeps pulling him back as a storytelling engine. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF PRINCE SONG, "DELIRIOUS")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, I'm talking with Craig Brewer, director of the new movie, "Song Sung Blue," featuring Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson.
OK. I want to shift gears for a little bit 'cause I want to talk a little bit more about your childhood. You're synonymous with Memphis. But you spent a significant part of your childhood in Vallejo, California...
BREWER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Which is a Navy town. It's a working-class town. It's racially mixed. Who were your friends? Who were you around, Craig?
BREWER: I - that's one thing that when I look back, I'm so grateful for it, that I really had, like, a real diverse childhood - you know, people that were working on submarines with their dads, you know? I'll say it - like, nerds, you know? I was one of them, you know? Just - I was always, like, a chubby kid. But then I discovered, like, Michael Jackson. And then I - me and my buddies, we, like, saved up on layaway at this store called Merry-Go-Round for the Michael Jackson zipper jacket that he wore in "Beat It." I wore it to church - mortified my mother.
You know, it was a time when, like, you know, "Saturday Night Live" was, like, really big in my life. Eddie Murphy was on it. You know, Prince was something that just blew me away with, like, "Purple Rain." So all my friends were just the strangest collection of people. But it was very much a community, you know? My mother was involved, and she was on the school board. I was in children's theater, and children's theater just rescued me.
I mean, I come from a sports family. My grandfather was on the first New York Mets team, and he played for the Yankees. And then later, he was a celebrity. He was in these light beer commercials for - where he would - he was - at the end of it, there was a gang called the light beer gang, and they argued whether light beer tastes great or was less filling. And he was at the end of every commercial. Just - there was - his name is Marvelous Marvin Throneberry. And he would just look at the camera and go, I still don't know why they asked me to do this commercial. So there was a sports expectation, I think, to some extent in my family, but I just wasn't interested or good at it. And so by going to the Vallejo Children's Theater and putting on production after production, I just had the fear beat out of me. And to also just be in that world where, you know, I was discovering music.
And I have to say, like, you know, especially in the '80s, there was this call to Blackness. Like, Black artistry was the culture. Tina Turner was on the radio with new artists. You know, Tina's been around. You know what I mean? Like - and now, here she is, like, chart topping with Lionel Richie and Michael Jackson. And, you know, you would - and then I always have a hard time explaining to young people just what Eddie Murphy was. Like, you're never going to understand how supernova that presence was globally. Just - we all fell in love with Eddie. And then The Fat Boys came out.
MOSLEY: Oh...
BREWER: The Fat boys...
MOSLEY: ...The Fat Boys.
BREWER: ...Oh, let me tell you something.
MOSLEY: Wait. Were you beatboxing?
BREWER: Oh. Not successfully, not effectively. But yes (laughter). Yes. I mean, and the thing about it, like - I mean, to be in a car with my friends, being picked up from school and having, like, Slick Rick and Doug E. Fresh come on and just saying, like, Mom, you got to turn this up. And to hear "The Show," you know, to hear what Doug E. Fresh was doing. And it was so outrageous. It was just so new and yet somewhat taboo. I knew people that went to church with me, or kids that went to church with me that would have to come over to my house so they could listen to The Fat Boys. They would come over to my house so they could listen to Prince because, you know, their parents wouldn't let them.
MOSLEY: There's something that comedian Kevin Hart - he's called you a real one, which in Black culture is just another way of saying you're invited to the cookout (laughter), you know? And, I mean, I was just thinking about how, like, audiences in general - you know, we're incredibly sensitive to what feels true and what feels false, especially in the small choices. And so I've always wondered with you where your understanding not just of Black stories comes from, but your understanding of Black interior life. And it sounds like your childhood was an element of giving you that foundation.
BREWER: It was. It was. But I really have to give credit where credit is due, and that's really just Memphis. I think that Memphis is truly a unique, magical place in American culture, both thematically, historically, geographically. It's - to live in Memphis and to love Memphis is to recognize that you are a part of Black culture. It is not part of you. You are in service and you benefit from Black culture. Our greatest white artists and even our greatest white politicians benefited from Black culture. Some of our greatest mayors are benefiting from Robert Church, who was the first-ever Black millionaire who built downtown. He was, you know, the son of a Black woman and a white steamboat operator, you know, during the, you know, Civil War, you know, and built Memphis from the ground up.
I definitely - I'm not here to say that I, you know, am speaking from experience or anything. I just try to keep an ear open to it and then, kind like a coach, just be in service of it. So just finding really great artists, trying to find great stories, trying to be as truthful as I can, and then arming everybody with what they need to be who they are and being grateful for it. But I do find it interesting that, you know, "Song Sung Blue" -I've had many people say, like, oh, it looks like you're doing something really different. And I always kind of go, well, what, though? I don't think I am doing anything different. And I think they're awkward and basically saying, yeah, but they're white.
MOSLEY: Right, right.
BREWER: By the way, I never get this really from Black people. It's usually white people going, like, what are you doing? And I go, I think I'm still doing the same thing, but I think you're seeing something else. And so I get it. I understand it. But I look at our music culture. I look at, like, what Stax was, what Booker T. & the M.G.'s were. And there is just something unique here. And that's where I get a lot of my inspiration. And here is where I get invited to the cookout, you know?
MOSLEY: Yeah, yes, yes. Last question for you, Craig. Do you have a story from that Prince after party at the Oscars?
BREWER: You've talked to somebody. First of all, I show up to Prince's house, and there's a purple rug that goes all the way up to his front door from where the van would drop you off. So I go up to the house. I come in through the front door, and there's nobody there. I thought there was going to be a party, right? But Ludacris was there, and he, too, was going like, hey, man, I thought there was going to be a party here. And it's like, yeah, I did too. Suddenly an elevator opens, and Chris Rock is there. And he goes, what y'all doing down here? And we're like, wait, we just showed up. We don't know where we're going. He's like, no, no, no. Come with me.
And so we all get in this elevator, and we go up to the roof of Prince's house, and the doors open. And I've never seen - it was like "The Wizard Of Oz," just but everybody who was somebody in this world and was Black was at this party. I mean, everybody. And there was like a - it was about three feet high, but it was this, like, moat, this river of chocolate that was going by you and it was just surrounded by fruit and marshmallows and these skewers that you could just like - I mean, it went on for, like, at least 10 or 30 feet and you could just dip all this food in the chocolate.
So then there's a tent that's on the roof. I can't explain this enough. We're on the roof of this house. And we go into one tent, and there's food and beverages in there. We go into another tent and Sheila E. is setting up to play entertainment for the night.
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
BREWER: And there's nowhere to sit. And then I hear, yo, Memphis. And I look over to the left, and there's Morgan Freeman. And he's got his own booth. And he's like - to the person he was with, he's like, scoot over and - scoot over? Me and my wife sat down and - 'cause he's from Memphis. You know, he lives down in Mississippi, but we've met a few times, and he knows I'm from Memphis, and we have that connection. And so, yeah, I sat there with Morgan Freeman and watched Sheila E. and met Prince on the night...
MOSLEY: What a life, Craig.
BREWER: ...On the night that my movie won Three 6 Mafia, an Academy...
MOSLEY: Right?
BREWER: ...Award for a song called "It's Hard Out Here For A Pimp." It was a surreal night (laughter).
MOSLEY: What a night. What a night.
BREWER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time, and thank you for your work.
BREWER: Oh, thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
MOSLEY: Craig Brewer's new film, "Song Sung Blue," opens in theaters on Christmas Day.
Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, actor Will Arnett. He stars in the new film "Is This Thing On?" about a man going through a divorce who finds himself onstage doing stand-up. Arnett cowrote the movie, which is directed by Bradley Cooper. We talk about the film, his extensive voiceover career and his popular "SmartLess" podcast. I hope you can join us.
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.
FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Susan Nyakundi directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
(SOUNDBITE OF JIMMY SMITH'S "MIDNIGHT SPECIAL - PART 1") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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