SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
The U.S. government's in the midst of another partial shutdown. Funding lapsed at midnight for the Department of Homeland Security. That includes vital agencies the Transportation Security Administration and the Coast Guard. Democrats in Congress say they won't vote to fund DHS without new restrictions on immigrant enforcement. Of course, the standoff comes after the killings in Minneapolis of Alex Pretti and Renee Macklin Good, both shot by federal agents. Senator Gary Peters is a Michigan Democrat, the ranking member on the Homeland Security Committee and a member of the Appropriations Committee. He's back home in Michigan. Senator, thanks for being with us.
GARY PETERS: Good to be with you, Scott. I hope all is well.
SIMON: Well, that's why I'm - we're talking to you.
PETERS: (Laughter).
SIMON: Congress is in recess. Are negotiations still going on?
PETERS: Yes, they are. We'll have negotiations back and forth. You know, I think we're still pretty far apart, unfortunately. And it's very unfortunate, given what we want to see, as the Democratic caucus is very united, is that we want to put in just some commonsense guardrails on actions by federal agents in DHS. And basically, the relatively concise list we provided to Republicans were to make sure that federal agents have to abide by the same kind of rules and regulations that our local police in our communities follow each and every day. And I think most Americans would agree that federal agents should not be above any of those laws or policies.
SIMON: There's 10 demands. And let me ask you the one specifically about requiring agents to wear ID and not wear masks. The administration says there's been a large increase in death threats - death threats against Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers - and therefore the masks are necessary. How do you react?
PETERS: Well, I - we don't think the masks are necessary in all cases, but there certainly are some restrictions and there are times when you use it. You know, the fact that you have an agent that is enforcing the law, they should be recognizable for accountability purposes. They certainly need to be wearing identification. They need to have some sort of badge number or individual number. But, you know, what's also happening is because you've got basically masked agents pulling people over without identification. There's actually a recent FBI bulletin - one that I raised to the heads of both departments at a hearing this week - that showed that there's an increase of violent criminals basically impersonating federal agents with mask and those kinds of vests that you can basically buy online.
And we've actually seen an increase of crimes against American citizens by people interpreting. People - when you think you have a masked person grab you and throw you into an unmarked van, most people think, that's probably somebody who's trying to do me harm. They don't know that's a federal agent. They have to know who a federal agent is and who's enforcing the law, and we believe that that's an appropriate thing to have.
SIMON: Of the list of 10 demands, any you're willing to negotiate about?
PETERS: Well, we certainly don't want to negotiate on air, on radio, in public.
SIMON: Oh, come on.
PETERS: (Laughter) But we are willing, you know, to have negotiations...
SIMON: Yeah.
PETERS: ...Back and forth and - but, again, you know, the basic premise of this, these are things that our local police live by every single day. And so having body cameras, for example, to make sure that we have video, and then making sure that that video actually is preserved - having an independent investigation, for example. When there is a shooting, not having the agency itself investigate its own, but actually have an outside entity. You know, here in Michigan, for example, if a local police department's involved in a shooting, they don't investigate. It's the Michigan State Police that investigate. That kind of independence is essential to build trust and to have credibility and legitimacy.
SIMON: Let me ask - of course, the committee chair, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky - a Republican - you have been speaking on a kind of a similar wavelength in the past week. He said that ICE and Border Patrol have lost the trust of the American public. Do you see an opening for a bipartisan deal?
PETERS: Well, no, I'm very encouraged. And Chairman Paul, you know, we had a very, I think, productive meeting. We actually went through the video that most all Americans have had a chance to see, and asked the director of ICE and CBP to say, what do you think of these actions? When an agent is hitting somebody repeatedly with a tear gas canister, is that de-escalating a situation or is it increasing it? And actually, both Chairman Paul and myself were able to ask very direct questions. Unfortunately, they couldn't answer them. They refused to 'cause they said there was an investigation ongoing. And we, of course, then pressed him, if you can't answer these questions, how did Secretary Noem, within a short period of time after the shooting, call him a domestic terrorist and someone who wanted to do a mass-casualty event? Clearly they're responsible. We were hoping to get her before our committee to let the American people to - know why she was saying those kinds of statements.
SIMON: Are you concerned that if there are people who miss a plane because TSA workers aren't around, Democrats will get blamed?
PETERS: Well, you know, we've still got time to work this through and we're going to do that. And we're going to hope the Republicans understand we're looking for a very straightforward way to take the next steps.
SIMON: Senator Gary Peters, Democrat of Michigan. Thank you so much for being with us, Senator.
PETERS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
