MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
I'd like to mention that our next conversation will involve a discussion of sexual assault. Earlier in today's program, we shared our conversation with Gisele Pelicot. She's the French woman who was drugged and raped repeatedly by her husband, Dominique Pelicot, who also invited dozens of men into their bedroom to rape Pelicot while she was heavily sedated.
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GISELE PELICOT: (Through interpreter) I did not recognize that woman. It was like some rag doll disguised. And I didn't recognize the people. Like, my brain just wouldn't, couldn't understand it.
MARTIN: We wanted to hear more about the psychology and the effect of chemical submission, so we called Lisa Fontes, who is an expert in intimate partner and sexual violence. Lisa Fontes, thanks so much for joining us.
LISA FONTES: I'm happy to be here.
MARTIN: When you first heard this, what came to your mind?
FONTES: What came to my mind is all the other women I work with who have been drugged by their partners. And her case is especially horrific in terms of the numbers of men and the numbers of years that this went on, but it's not unfamiliar to me.
MARTIN: When did you start to learn about this as a phenomenon? Because I have to say that many people, myself among them, were deeply shocked. I think the image that people have in their mind around coercive sexual encounters is a stranger or someone you don't know very well. What I'm hearing you say is that this is not a unique phenomenon.
FONTES: When I started working closely with victims of coercive control and domestic violence, they would tell me things - that they usually weren't aware that they had been drugged, but they talked about things so that I understood that they probably were drugged. I asked my colleagues in the field who work with abusive men, what do the men you work with say about this? And they told me, oh, nothing. It's a very rare phenomenon. So then I started asking victims' groups, and it turns out it's not a rare phenomenon at all.
MARTIN: With the case of Dominique Pelicot, he invited dozens of men to rape his wife while she was unconscious. And I just have to ask you, what does that say, that there seems to be a need to engage in this behavior repeatedly?
FONTES: Well, it certainly says something about Dominique Pelicot as well as the other men who came to sexually assault his wife. It is the ultimate control over a woman, I suppose, to render her lifeless, basically. The drugs rendered her without a will. And there are entire corners of the internet that appeal to men who have this fantasy and, I guess, sometimes act on that fantasy of having a woman who completely submits to their will. I think, unfortunately, there are many men who don't want to or can't relate to a whole woman - a woman who has feelings and opinions and preferences.
MARTIN: Perhaps it is unknowable, but I guess the further question in the Gisele Pelicot case is why would someone do this to someone that they supposedly love?
FONTES: I think it is a feeling of power over. And there are some pretty serious allegations against Mr. Pelicot that date way before these actions that he's been convicted of recently. So he is an unusually warped individual, and he led this double life. But let's remember the dozens and dozens - I think it's over 70 men. We should blame them as well.
MARTIN: Is there some broader lesson here that we should draw from this case?
FONTES: I think there are several. One is law enforcement. If all these men could find out about this to act on it, why couldn't law enforcement? Another question is the easy access to drugs that will render somebody else inert. I think when you have a suspicion, we should act on it. And I hope that learning about this will help others be suspicious, be concerned and don't dismiss the inklings that they may have.
MARTIN: Lisa Fontes is the author of "Invisible Chains: Overcoming Coercive Control In Your Intimate Relationship." Lisa Fontes, thanks so much for sharing these insights with us.
FONTES: Thank you, Michel.
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