The saga of several dozen federal occupational health and safety researchers in Spokane has taken a new turn.
Last April, the Trump administration issued layoff notices to employees at the Spokane Research Division of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH). Soon after, a federal judge issued an injunction, allowing the employees to keep their jobs. But, in many cases, they weren’t allowed to continue their work.
Last week, the government issued a new round of notices, notifying people they'd be getting their jobs back. Many had already left Spokane for new opportunities. We’ll talk with one of those researchers.
Recently, I called Jerry Poplin to chat. Poplin was one of the Spokane federal mine safety researchers who received a layoff notice last spring. He has since moved to Virginia. As we got acquainted before our formal interview, I was struck by something he said.
Doug: You use the word ‘we.’ Are you hoping to go back to NIOSH? Or is it just Comrade in Arms?
Jerry Poplin: Comrade in Arms. I mean, I helped build this part of the Spokane Mining Research Division that's focused on mineworker health. You know, that was my main charge over the last 10 years to develop the miner health program. So we built some teams and a branch of teams and I played a pretty integral role in all that. So that's why I'm very much like still in the mix of it still trying to communicate to our partners to make sure they know what's going on. And they're advocating for NIOSH.
Even now upon their return, we got to make sure that the return is stable and secure, you know, given we've lived in such uncertainty for nine months. So yeah, so I'm still trying to stand up for them as much as possible. They're part of me, I'm a part of them. It's kind of like the mafia. So you can't ever get out.
DN: Jerry Poplin has switched gears, career wise. He’s now in academia.
JP: I am currently the Associate Dean for Research for the Joint School of Public Health at Old Dominion University and Norfolk State University.
DN: It's a new assignment for you, more or less, is it not?
JP: That's right.
DN: You came from Spokane. Tell me what you did in Spokane.
JP: So I did many things at Spokane. But most notably, I helped build a research program that was focused on the health and well-being of mine workers throughout the U.S.
DN: And I guess we should step back and say, what was your agency? Your agency is called NIOSH. That's, I guess, the acronym. But what's it stand for? And what does it do?
JP: NIOSH is the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health. It's a part of the CDC, which is a part of HHS. It is the only federal agency that is charged with protecting the health and safety of America.
DN: And what did you like about the job?
JP: Several things. I really value being a public servant. I like the fact that our research was meant to be publicly available. I like that we got to work hand in hand with different industries, and got to go out to the environments and work with the workers that we aim to serve and benefit and improve. So that one of the lines I used to give is, my goal and our goal was to have research improve their workplace so that they can retire with function.
DN: So you had a pretty good relationship with the mining industry, is that correct?
JP: I believe so.
DN: And when you would go out on a mine site, what sorts of things would you look for and talk with them about?
JP: Well, it usually starts off where you go to the mine, or the mine comes to you and they talk about some challenges that they might be having, or maybe there's a new technology that they want to get a better understanding for.
And we start building research around some of those questions. And the hope is that better understanding what the exposures look like, what the potential risks are for using equipment in certain environments, the more that we can do to understand that and design ways to do it safely, that can help translate to not just other mines, but you know, possibly other industries.
DN: And where are the areas you think you made the most progress?
JP: It's a great question. I helped with all my colleagues at NIOSH build better awareness around non-injurious health outcomes. So the miner health program was a big part of my time at NIOSH, and just developing that and not just looking at the risk of fatality, the risk of injury, but looking at the workplace environment where it's a place that you can actually improve your health. And you can do it in a manner that you could retire with function, and you didn't have to sacrifice those things.
So just being able to work with folks and learn a little bit more about their day to day environments and how it can be designed so that they can have a healthy, not just a safe, but a healthy workplace and life outside of work.
DN: That's interesting because mining is not known for one of those easy-on-the-body sorts of things. So many miners have left and had so many health issues that have debilitated them after they're after they left.
JP: No, that's right. So I think it actually comes out of the 1970 Occupational Safety and Health Act. Health requires different approaches and safety. And so we kind of leaned in on that language to really bring a concerted focus there.
DN: Were mining industries receptive to this? Did they did they want you in there to be studying this kind of stuff?
JP: They did. And a lot of them came to us. I mean, one of the things that we formed is the miner health program. That ended up developing a lot of cool partnerships and engagement with, I think at the time of my departure, it was about 180 different individuals that were part of that from across mining from across trade organizations, manufacturers, other academic institutions and federal partners. And it was actually getting a little bit more international attention as well.
DN: So tell me about the team that you worked with here in Spokane, you know, how big was it? And how did it work together?
JP: Sure, I actually started off with just a team of four people. And this is like, towards the end of 2016.
And over the subsequent nine years, we built up a branch. And so that's, you know, multiple teams. And we got to the point where we had a pretty nice interdisciplinary group of epidemiologists, statisticians, engineers of different types, whether mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, things of that nature, but also industrial organics, psychology, industrial hygienists. So it was a really nice mix of skill sets and expertise that could tackle some of these really complex problems and in novel ways.
DN: NIOSH has a pretty good reputation among, well, not only industry, but also government. I mean, you felt like you could make a pretty good case that we're worth the taxpayers’ money that we're getting.
JP: Agreed, yeah. And I think, you know, most government agencies who work with NIOSH and different groups, they know who NIOSH is. We're not the biggest agency, but if you get to work with us, you kind of know how we play a role behind the scenes. And the few studies that have been done that show you benefit from NIOSH's research. So it's not a cost as much as it is as a savings because you're helping keep workers working. So you don't have as many injuries that you're paying out for. You have better retention of employees. You're not adding for, say, mine workers or firefighters. You don't have to replace somebody if they're injured to fill a gap, so you're not paying overtime, things like that. So throughout the time that NIOSH has been around, they have been a net benefit both financially and just for longevity of workers.
DN: So it sounds to me like among the NIOSH workers, there was a real pride in what they did, and you felt like you were doing good stuff.
JP: Agreed. It's a great working environment. It's very team based. And it's just very interesting, just getting to go to some of these different environments and really learn from the workers. It's just a great way to diversify your own skill set.
DN: What was it like when in April, collectively, I guess you all got layoff notices? What was that all about? And what was it like to as a team to experience that?
JP: It was jarring. You know, there's obviously a lot of mixed emotions. And it's also really important to appreciate that everyone's experience is a little bit personal and unique to their own circumstances.
So, you know, in Spokane, we have amazing leadership. And they really took a hands-on approach to making sure everyone was as informed as they could be and supported in multiple ways.
And that's actually one of the great things about my division of NIOSH is that we really enjoy each other. We really appreciate each other and we support each other.
DN: So I think I used the wrong terminology. You've used the term RIF, reductions in force. From what I understand, it's not like people were told, your job has ended right now. They just essentially said, okay, we're going to continue to pay you, but you're not able to continue the work you've been working on. Is that an accurate statement?
JP: Some derivation of that. The first notices that we got the reduction in force basically said, like, we're terminating your position in two months. And so, at that point, the volume of notices sent out that included the entire division that I worked in, minus Commissioned Corps officers, that effectively was going to shut down both the Spokane Mining Research Division and the Western States Division that is housed in Spokane.
DN: So once you got that notification, how did you proceed? I mean, what did you decide what needs to be my future?
JP: Yeah, I probably need some therapy to work out all the different emotions that kind of ensued over the coming months.
But it was a mixed bag of everything. You wanted to resist it. You wanted to fight back, because you really enjoy your job. And you wanted it to maintain. So we did a lot of outreach as to understand what was driving this and see if we could communicate to decision makers that this wasn't a good move.
But at the same time, you know, we weren't receiving a lot of information that led us to believe things would change, and we would be brought back. And so you have to start considering alternatives. And so it really was just this mixed approach to fighting for your job while also looking for alternatives.
Despite that's not what you really wanted for yourself when the year started off.
DN: So some people were talking about, you know, I've got research here, but I don't have any money to carry it on. I'm not allowed to travel. I'm not allowed to do this. Were they just staying home? And were they just communicating with each other? What was the feeling like, while you were in limbo for months?
JP: Yeah, every division kind of treated a little bit differently. I think when you're told that you're going to be losing your job and cease all activity. Some people just took that literally and say, ‘Well, you don't want me to do my job, I won't do the job.’
However, everyone here in Spokane, it's just amazing how public service oriented everyone is and to be good stewards of the research that we put work into. We wanted to make sure that to the point that we could that that research could get out to the public and maybe have a life outside of our division if it was going to be closed down.
So we tried as best as possible to package everything for public consumption. So that wasn't completely lost. So that was there's a lot of effort in Spokane to do that in across NIOSH as a ‘just in case’ scenario.
DN: So you're now an outsider, you've moved on to academia in Virginia. How closely do you still communicate with your mates back in Spokane?
JP: Several of them I speak with, you know, every couple of days, weekly, various text messages and phone calls. We're a pretty good group. We all get along really nicely. And they definitely like to give me a hard time for leaving. So in good jest.
DN: There's still some sense of we then, huh?
JP: Yeah, I don't think I'll ever not say we. I think I really appreciate them, the mission of NIOSH. And so, you know, if I can serve it in whatever capacity I can, whether it's within the federal government or outside the federal government, I definitely want to help support the cause.
DN: Do you ever see yourself going back? Or is that door closed?
JP: Oh, I won't ever say the door is closed. I mean, I couldn't anticipate the last year. So I won't say the future is closed for that. I hope to help, I think, more than anything. And if that makes sense for me to return, then, you know, we'll make that decision when it's when it is an option.
DN: I finished by asking Jerry Poplin if there were lessons he has learned.
JP: The one thing that I kind of keep talking about with friends and colleagues is the clearest lesson I've had from all this is the need to better articulate and communicate the value that NIOSH research has for industries for policymakers, community partners. So now that I'm on the outside of the federal government, it's more clear to me that, now that NIOSH has been reinstated, that we on the outside, are going to need to be engaged partners to help ensure that their return is actually stable and well supported, and hopefully protected from this kind of disruption in the future.
DN: Jerry Poplin is a former NIOSH mine safety researcher who now is an associate research dean at Old Dominion and Norfolk State universities in Virginia.
